So for this, i had to go back to the origin of why i was reccomended to watch groundhog day to begin with.
"I have a question for you, have you seen the movie "Groundhog Day"? If so, what
are your thoughts about it? Do you feel there are there any "deep meaning"
messages in it?"
So i watched it today. Not a bad movie. hiiilarious.
But as far as deep things are concerned, i'll have to return to the blog that sparked the reccomendation, and its reply, just to touch up on things a bit.
My general thoughts though, are that there was no incredibly DEEP meaning. It was the logical evolution of a common mans train of thought when given an infinitely impossible situation.
He cycled through various sins, through suicides, and eventually ended up doing the right thing.
when given a bad situation, he responded poorly, and was unhappy. eventually he learned that using his bizarre situation to do good things can have positive benefits AND make him happy. Its like a rat pushing the button for a shock or for a treat. Once he learns what makes him happy, he'll do it over and over and over again.
Before his Groundhog days, he was egotistical and mean. Afterwards, he was selfless and nice. the transition was relatively realistic.
with reference to the "Big picture" or master plan. the movie is hardly indicative of what the plan is, and does not imply divine intervention, but if one were to infer divine interference, then it would be to teach the main character a lesson.
in real life, i think it would be too presumptuous (spelling?) of any of us to say we know what the plan is. if there is a plan, presumably its rather complex, and involves some paradoxes concerning sinfulness.
As far as movies are concerned though, i give it 3.5 stars. i hope this has been a sufficient movie review : )
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7 comments:
Fair enough! A decent effort of a review, thanks. I think there are some parallels to the meaning or purpose of life. Allow me to indulge:
1) Life can be repetitious and monotonous but these are not bad things because along the way we are improving. We learn from our mistakes and we try to do better the next time around. Let me throw out a term, eternal progression (progression meaning improving, bettering, etc.)
2. Life is really meaningless if we can't share it with the people we love. No matter how much money or stuff, time, immortality, etc. without the people we love it is all pointless.
3. Being good makes one feel better than being bad. Yet so many people in this world are more ready to screw others than to be kind to others. This movie kind of shows both and I agree that we are happier when we are good, nice, kind.
4. Ironically Phil says he's a God, not "the God", but a God. If you can't die, you are immortal then yes, to some degree you are a God (IMO). He also says "maybe that's what makes God a God, he's been around so long that he knows everything." That statement commands deeper thinking to me.
I believe this life is a sort of training program for becoming a God. Just as a father wishes to give all that he has to his obedient son(s)/daughter(s), God wants to give all that he has to his obedient children. God certainly can't give all that he has to children who will be disobedient because such power in the hands of evil is dangerous. But if we prove ourselves "good", he can reward us with "all that he has". To me that means we are apprentices to Godhood (apprentice: a: one bound by indenture to serve another for a prescribed period with a view to learning an art or trade b: one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling). Can you see any relevance to raising a family and how that might in some small way be training for Godhood, God being the spiritual father of all mankind)? Wonder why Mormons are so family focussed/oriented???
So, what I'm saying is that life is about eternal progression. We came hear from our pre-existent state in spirit form to get a body and to be tested, as part an opportunity to progress from where we were in that state. This life is part of our training. When a kid goes away to college, he/she is training to improve, to progress. We left our heavenly home to be schooled here in mortality. This means we will be tested. Will we do what is right, even when nobody is looking? when things are the toughest? when it may otherwise seem like a disadvantage to us? when the majority says that evil is good and good is evil?
So I'm launching off of Groundhog day to these things that are deep. I think there are some parallels in the movie and had you seen it before when I asked, I'd have tried to relate to them to my line of thought at that time. Since you hadn't, well I couldn't.
Obviously Groundhog day is just a fun movie but I feel it got me thinking at a deeper level. I think the writers did a good job coming up with this story line and I especially like that it flirts in a round about way with looking at the real meaning of life, in the most basic or most broad sense.
The things that I've shared here are what I believe, what I know to be true about the purpose of life. Presumptuous? Maybe, but these are not only my beliefs, these are LDS beliefs. That means, Mitt Romney, Steve Young, J Willard Marriott, Gladys Knight, Harry Reid, Orson Scott Card and about 14 million others all believe these things too, to the point that they are trying to live their lives toward that objective.
Purpose of life = part of our eternal progression, training and testing for Godhood
If you know the purpose of life, AKA the objective of the game, then you can make choices that will help you reach that objective (i.e. win the game, if your following the game analogy). If you don't know what the purpose is, then you are really nothing more than "a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed" James 1:6.
Which sounds like you're in control of your life? Marching toward an objective that promises magnificent and eternal rewards (not to mention happiness because you are choosing "good") or being driven by the wind and tossed?
I certainly don't expect you to believe any of this merely because I sat here and told you these things, or because some famous people and nearly 14 million others believe it. I'm only saying that people should be searching, they should want to know what the purpose is, why do we do this thing called life? Wake up, get out of bed, go to school or work, go home, day after day after day. To what end??? What is the reason?
You may ask how can anyone know that this is in fact true? I won't tell you that here but I will testify that there is a way to know beyond a shadow of a doubt and that I do know that these things are true. I'd be more than happy to share more with you and you could decide for yourself before you committed a single minute more beyond that as to whether it was bogus or not. There is really nothing in it for me personally, no gain.
I won't pursue this subject any further if you choose not to. I'll respect whatever you decisions are. I'll only respond to your comments or questions if you have them and if you want me to. Fair?
I'll draw just one other parallel to the movie the Matrix. There is something more to life than what everyone thinks is true or real. Some people will search for it and find it, others are happy to just live out there lives being driven and tossed about and are conent to just find out what happens in the end (even if that means they missed the bus). The parallel kind of stops there, I can't see any other parallels to truth and the meaning of life in the Matrix beyond that.
And if you got anything out of this long comment, it is that you now know why I was hoping that you had watched Groundhog day. Aside from all the deep thinking stuff, I found it entertaining and funny, I'm a huge Bill Murray fan.
wow!
Everything that you said makes sense to me. There are maybe a few things I disagree with, but I appreciate the effort that went into this for "little ol' me".
The only thing i really can't reconcile with my personal beliefs is that life is god-training (forgive the paraphrase). If the options, when people die, are for the bad people to go to hell, the good people to go to heaven, and the REALLY good people to become Gods, then it causes some class tensions, in a manner of speaking. It depends on the definition of what "Good" really is. Someone who leads a good life, doing good things, not being immoral but not being 100% "good" 100% of the time isn't a BAD person, and therefore not subject to punishment. But this person isn't good ENOUGH, and therefore not subject to Godhood.
unless that is not what you were saying, in which case i stand corrected. Even so, the idea of becoming Gods after death is just not something i can reconcile with my (current) beliefs.
But, to your credit, i agree with what my dad said on the subject of Mormonism vs. Fundamentalist christianity. "I disagree with Mormon theology - but the fact is, there are no better Americans and yes, Christians than Mormon's (as a group)." And not only because of your family-oriented-ness.
The second thing i disagree with (though its just a pet peeve of mine) is the declaration of what is True and, as a result, what is not. You have declared to know something that is True, beyond a shadow of a doubt. My sister, who is a fundamentalist christian, has declared that her beliefs are also True. In the words of Tevya from Fiddler on the roof, "You can't both be right!"
I believe Absolute Faith and "Truth" are easily confused. I respect that you have absolute faith that your beliefs are right, same with my sisters. Turns out i am asking exactly what you thought i might ask, "how can anyone know for sure if that is, in fact, true?" (or somethign to that effect).
The thing about religion is that no one knows for sure anything. It is Faith that keeps people going, and their various levels of Faith. Absolute faith is the belief that your beliefs are True. My faith is such that I have my beliefs, but i have to acknowledge the possibility that i might be wrong. I have absolute faith that God exists, but some might have that same issue with the existance of God: they believe, but acknowledge that they might be wrong.
Everything else about your comment i think is incredible stuff that i can agree with, but those are the only 2 issues i had, and one of them is a pet peeve and the other is just a fundamental difference in beliefs.
Great comments, great insight, I see that you are putting some serious thought into this, excellent! I’ll apologize in advance for the length of my reply. I’m sure it could be said with less words and more affect in person, but since this (writing) is the forum our discussion, here it goes.
I want to clarify a few things. First I feel I need to explain Hell, since you’ve brought it up more than once. It isn’t really worth explaining because it is extremely difficult (impossible for most) to get there. By our beliefs, you have to have a pretty sure knowledge/witness of Jesus Christ, and then reject him and/or openly rebel against Him. It is my understanding that you have to have had a pretty strong witness and I don’t think the numbers are great who have or ever will have sufficient knowledge. This might explain why it is better that we live by faith and that it is not a good idea to seek a sign or other form of proof from God. There’s a lot more wiggle room (mercy/forgiveness) available to us when we’re just going on faith (Matthew 16:17 “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”). As for the other mansions in heaven (John 14:2) AKA other degrees of glory (that are not Godhood AKA “eternal life” AKA “exaltation”), even the lowest (Telestial kingdom) is better than the mortal life we live now (for one we will all be immortal, no death or physical afflictions). In a sense, everyone gets a reward, no matter how badly people have lived (with the exception of the very few Hell-bound mentioned above). No man can judge who gets what reward, that is the Savior’s role. It is wrong for us to even pretend to judge anyone for we are not perfect and we don’t know the true intent of people’s hearts, nor are we all given the same challenges. Suffice to say that God is merciful and loving, and I feel that we will all bode well (probably much better off than if we’d judged ourselves) at judgment day (IMHO).
I agree that it is difficult to get your head around the idea of becoming a God, for we don’t really understand what God is. I suppose if we did, we would be Gods. But I do know a few things about God. First, that he is a father (parent), that he gives life and takes life away, that he judges: he humbles (chastises) and blesses (rewards). When you become a parent some day, you will learn that in some small way you do the same. You give life (if He lets you), you certainly don’t take life (that’s not typically something that he has granted us) but you do judge your children’s behavior and reward or chastise. You love like you’ve never loved before (trust me on this). You help in your children’s progression and you share joy in their successes. You are a mentor. So yes, we are given some Godly powers and responsibilities even right now in mortality. People who are irresponsible with these powers and responsibilities do not deserve to keep them for eternity (it’s a trial, it’s a test). But, being a merciful God, He gives us our entire life time to get it right, to earn those rights. Many people are too selfish to be decent or good parents. Parenting is really all about selflessness and that is why it is our true test in mortality. Many people want to mess with the powers of creation but they don’t want the associated parenting responsibilities. Should God give the eternal powers and responsibilities of procreation to people who haven’t proven themselves worthy of such gifts in this their probationary life?
So, in case it wasn’t obvious, one difference between becoming Gods and not is the ability to procreate. Most people are given this gift in mortality, what they have now, they may lose. Selfish people may be thrilled to not have the extra baggage of those parenting powers, they may even say they didn’t want them in the first place. But many people have yet to figure out that true happiness is having and raising families. Consider how that was pointed out in Groundhog Day, “what really is the point of life (mortality or immortality) if you can’t share it with the person or persons you love?” There is no point, there is no happiness and “Phil” found it to be a hellish existence to spend immortality like that. That’s what I love about that movie, the immortality aspect makes that point loud and clear. I submit that true happiness is having a family (ponder that in the realm of immortality). This is not to say that raising a family is easy, it is the hardest thing that I’ve ever done. It is also the most rewarding thing that I’ve ever been a part of (it won’t be easy, but it will be worth it). People tend to realize this more when they no longer have it. Would you concur that you tend to appreciate things more once you’ve lost them or they are taken away? I have a feeling that when people can no longer have children in their immortal state, they will sorely miss and desire that gift. We know that a child learns from his/her parent (their mentor), and therefore spends his or her whole life working toward becoming like them (to some degree). Ultimately that means they grow up and have a family of their own, hence become parents (mentors) themselves. People get distracted along the way and selfishness becomes glamorized and this tends to divert from what is important. Trust me, if you never become a parent you will limit your understanding and knowledge (and therefore eternal progression) immensely. If you don’t become a parent, you will be oblivious (probably as you are now) to what I’m saying. New parents are always amazed when they realize that their parents actually had reasons for their madness (bed times, church attendance, saying you’re sorry, etc.)...
In several New Testament scriptures there are words to the effect of “all that I have is thine” (Luke 15:31) and that we can become a ruler over “all that he hath” (Luke 12:44). To me, this suggests that we can potentially inherit “all” that he has. We interpret this to mean that we can become Gods. I am sure there is a lot more to Godhood than what I have discussed here. I hope to be worthy of the opportunity to one day truly discover for myself what Godhood really means. Again, I think you have to become a God in order to know/understand. Let’s face it, is there really any other carrot worthy of our complete and best effort and, enduring to the end? I mean, “all” is “all”, right?
As for your comment (and/or your dad’s comment) about the caliber of people that you all regard Mormons to be, that was a very kind thing to say and it means a lot to me that you shared it. I would like to believe that your words give credence to Matthew 7:20 “by their fruits ye shall know them”. Nevertheless, I have known bad Mormons and many not so good Mormons (at one time during my younger wilder years I was both bad and then not so good). But collectively or generally speaking as a whole, I agree that Mormons are very good people. Mormons come in all different shapes, forms and sizes, and different levels of understanding and commitment. You shouldn’t judge them all by any single one, good or bad. But I think if you consider the fully committed, temple worthy members, these people should stand out as a beacon of light in the darkness of the world. This isn’t to say that they aren’t weird or strange people, because admittedly they (we) often are, but I am saying that they will undoubtedly be good people.
Lastly, I applaud your pet peeve and your reasoning that contradicting or opposing views can not both/all be true. This is exactly what the 14 year old boy Joseph Smith could not understand. In his case (early 1800’s), different sects of religion taught opposing doctrines and Joseph knew they couldn’t all be true, yet he didn’t know how to discern who was speaking truth and who wasn’t. At least not until he stumbled upon a scripture in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” There is much more to this story but rather than go there, let’s just point something out with regards to truths in general. I believe that many religions share many truths. If they teach that Jesus Christ is the son of God, our Savior and Redeemer, who died and atoned for our sins, then the Holy Ghost is obligated to bear witness of these things through feelings (that’s his role and purpose). You know there is a God, not by any proof but because you feel that is right, the Holy Ghost has testified it to you. If a religion preaches honesty, integrity, trustworthiness, kindness, repentance, baptism, etc. the Holy Ghost is obligated to bear witness to these things as they are indeed truths. This is why so many people feel so committed to their faiths, they have felt the witness of the Holy Ghost, it feels good and it causes them to pursue more good feelings where that came from. Here is where the tricky part comes though, what happens when two views oppose each other, then as you’ve so profoundly stated, “you can’t both be right”. This is where the rubber meets the road. For example, baptism is a requirement, true, great. But how should baptism be carried out, a sprinkling, immersion, by some particular authority (what authority)? Let’s focus on authority for a moment, can you simply take a class or read a book and suddenly have the authority to baptize? Can you buy the authority? Who has the authority and how is it given to or received from others? Different faiths will answer these questions differently. Catholics believe that it was given to Peter. Mormons believe that it was lost (taken away) due to the predominance of wickedness when all of Christ’s Apostles were martyred for their testimonies, and that this necessitated a restoration of authority in a time when people were predominantly more righteous. The authority does have to come from Christ, if it is his church. One cannot merely put on a police uniform and/or read a book and then be authorized to pull people over and write tickets. He/she has to be sworn in and given that authority and shield, to act in behalf of the city or state and the law.
What about post mortality? Godhood? Resurrection? Immortality? Being married until death do you apart vs. being married for eternity???
Wherever religions differ in teachings, this is where we need to focus, this is what we need to learn what is true and what is not. Personally, I struggle with the fact that Mormonism was involved in polygamy in the early years. However, I also struggle that Abraham and other old testament prophets were polygamists as well. The Mormon doctrine feels mostly right to me. If I compare it to others, principle by principle, that I’ve studied and pondered, it makes the most sense and in many cases I’ve received a witness from the Holy Ghost (a feeling, just like the one that tells me there is a God). With the things like polygamy that I struggle to comprehend, I have to take it on faith. I haven’t found any other religion that comes remotely close to feeling right as a whole. I try to be open-minded but at the same time I need to be committed to what I already know to be true.
I’m going to once more state that I in no way expect you to believe anything that I’ve said simply because I took time to put it in writing. My whole objective is to get you to desire to know, to search and pray for answers as to why it is we are living this life. My oldest son believes we are just here randomly for no specific purpose at all, just to live life as we please. I can not comprehend this thinking. I know there is a higher reason or purpose. I know that our experiences in this life have to have some relevance to whatever that purpose is, in other words a scaled down or trial version of things to come. I believe in the Mormon theology because of this, the answers they have to my questions regarding Where did I come from, Why am I here and where am I going after this life? I can’t find any other religion that can give me any comparably valid explanation of these things, much less make any sense at all regarding these topics. This doctrine makes sense to me, it feels right and while I don’t know the details (I don’t think it is open for us to know), I feel strongly about the general ideas. All the other Mormon doctrines support these things (we call them the plan of salvation), especially those that pertain to the ordinances in our temples.
I hope that you have some inclination now as to where I was going when I asked you about the “ultimate perspective (in your words)”, which was in response to your blog about admiration of The Big Picture. I hope that I have also explained a bit why I used the analogy of the red pill or blue pill from the Matrix to describe the desire/will or lack thereof to exploring the deeper meaning (truth) to the purpose of life. (John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”) Finally, I hope that I have explain my reasons for drawing parallels to the movie The Groundhog Day and why I think it causes one to ponder and explore more probing messages with respect to the eternal plan (life), in addition to providing some entertainment and comedic relief.
Very interesting. Again, i agree with most of what you say. I really am not that versed in my religious works, but, for the sake debate, i'd like to point out a few more things.
Firstly, does the "becoming gods" thing (i liked your explanation of it, by the way) interfere with the "I am the one true god, have none before me" commandment? (i think its a commandment, at least). I can see it could be argued that you aren't having a god, you're becoming one, but what do you do when you are a god? Make mini-people? Would they worship you, or worship god? In that case, is it possible that jesus is the son of a deceased mormon, who worships God? do we become Gods equals or just other gods without quite as many powers?
And as far as procreation is concerned, that is another pet peeve of mine. You said "You give life (if He lets you), you certainly don’t take life..."
the implication is that You only have children of God allows it. i may have misinterpreted it, but as of right now thats my understanding.
the pet peeve comes into play when people remove the human/natural factor and devote something entirely to God. I hear my sisters fiancee doing this all the time, "God gave me a car" or "God gave me a job" (not exact quotes, but things similar to that). In this case, its god giving children, when there is a scientific process that dictates whether a person is able to have children or not, and what gender the child becomes, etc etc. In a similar manner that its a person giving a car, or an employer giving the job.
again, those are the only 2 issues i can think of off the top of my head from your response. I appreciate all this very much, its really helping me get a feel for my own beliefs and what they are, exactly. I hope you dont mind responding, if i'm start asking too many questions, feel free to tell me to cut it out :P
On the contrary about asking too many questions, if I get too lengthy in my responses, please give me the word. I almost elected to just email you because I was embarrassed at the length of my replies (especially the previous one, and perhaps this one), but I figured what the heck, we’ve started down this public blog path, no sense changing it now. I have no problem answering any question you have, though I’m not always going to have the answer, but I’ll try to give it my best stab (or at least my speculation, which I’ll always preface with a disclaimer).
Again, I find myself impressed with your questions, for I have wandered in the same paths. Because I am not a God, and because there is no written doctrine that details Godhood in Mormon theology, I can only give you my best guess on your first set of questions. But let’s start by considering the parent child relationship that we know in this life. I was a child, yet I have become a father. I can never become my father’s father, nor can I become his equal (i.e. brother or peer, at his level). I am only a father to my own children. I feel certain that this life is in some way a scaled down model of how it will be with interrelationships between Gods. In this life (our mortal life), there is only one God that we ever need to be concerned with, He is our God and I suspect he will always be our God. My father doesn’t have any say in raising my kids, he has absolutely no jurisdiction there. I would expect the same to apply with us when we become Gods, my God now remains my God just as my early father remains my earthly father even when I become a dad. Again, I am speculating, but it makes sense to me. I just can’t sit here and pretend to really know how it will be in eternal life, because I’m a mere imperfect mortal man, still trying to just get my head around the things that really matter in this mortal life. We don’t figure out how to be a parent over night, just because we had a child. We learn over time. I think the same applies to becoming a God, it’s probably going to come with experience. The key is that we should all want to be accepted into this “Godhood” learning program. Talk about eternal progression, eh? I suppose that it will be similar to getting accepted into the Harvards or Yales of “eternal life” higher education…And no, I’m not saying you have to be smart, that is the beauty of this program. You don’t have to be brilliant, you don’t have to be an incredible athlete, you don’t have to be beautiful or popular. All that is required is that you be humble and that you be obedient/good (OK, so that’s harder than it sounds, isn’t it?). My point is anyone can do it. We don’t have to be born with special gifts or talents.
Back to your questions. You actually hit on one of my pet peeves about “Thou shalt not have other Gods or engraven images before me.” You are correct, that is a commandment. I can’t understand how some religions can endorse praying to Saints, virgins, statues, etc. Sorry, I don’t’ mean to be specific to any one religion but I just don’t get how intelligent people can’t see a contradiction here with this commandment and praying to a statue of the virgin Mary for example. Some may feel it is hypocritical for me say that and then talk about becoming Gods but again, I see this life and the rules and commandments that pertain to it as completely separate from the post mortal life to come. Besides, as I’ve pointed out, I don’t see my relationship with my God changing. He will still be my only God so I won’t have any other before Him. I suspect that I will go to Him for help/counsel when I need it just as I still go to my earthly father for help/counsel when I need it. This eternal perspective stuff is all pretty mind-boggling, probably not for mortal consumption, but it’s interesting to ponder. I’m going to make reference to yet another movie, please bear with me. Men In Black 2, have you seen it? If so, recall how it ends with Will Smith feeling sorry for the little rats living in a small locker only to then discover that the world he and Tommy Lee Jones live in is just one locker of many many other lockers. If you haven’t seen this movie you won’t get the reference. If you have, you’ve probably already made the connection to the parallel of many Gods (and therefore many worlds). Kind of hard to comprehend. I honestly don’t think that mortals are capable of comprehending much of this just as I don’t believe my 2 year old daughter is capable of understanding calculus. I really shouldn’t even be speculating about worlds to come because that’s all they are, speculations. Nevertheless, they make sense to me as I try to connect the dots and it wouldn’t surprise me if I wasn’t at least close to the mark on how things will be generally speaking. “Is it possible that Jesus is the son of a deceased Mormon, who worships God” you ask? I really don’t know, I suppose maybe it is. Here are some other questions to ponder: is there a Jesus/Savior for every God? Do I have to pattern my world after the model that we have in this world (i.e. with a Savior, right and wrong, free agency)? Can I have bigger waves (I was a surfer growing up), bigger mountains, different rules, a different plan??? I’m not even going to begin to try to answer these questions. I think that is part of the training that we’ll get once we get into the “Godhood” program (by the way, there is no such term known by Mormons, I’m merely using it here to refer to becoming Gods, aka “exaltation” or “eternal life” in Mormon vocabulary). For now, I believe we need to focus our efforts and energy on getting accepted into that program. I believe it is crucial that we understand to some degree what we are working toward, I personally need the motivation, the hope, because this isn’t easy. Are you starting to see the big picture of “eternal progression”? Does any of this make sense? It does to me, more than any other explanation that I’ve heard.
What happens to people who don’t make it into the Godhood program? I suppose they are able to progress to some degree within their own spheres but from everything that I’ve heard in my 30+ years as a member of this church, it isn’t something that we should even want to set our sites on. We are taught from day one to be the best that we can be at whatever we do. Why do I want to settle for less? As a parent, I encourage my children to do the best that they can do. We should want the best for ourselves and not settle for less. Where righteousness is concerned, I think we all (all of God’s children) are capable of achieving this “eternal life” or “exaltation”. We may not all be on the same level playing field in this respect. Surely the teachings of our parents (or lack thereof) can be a huge help or a huge hindrance to our progression, but I believe that we are all born with a conscience and the stuff that we need to qualify for exaltation. Then because the playing field isn’t equal, we have a perfect judge who knows all, who will fairly judge us based on our circumstances. This starts to illustrate the incredible significant and importance of parents being good parents. What if parents don’t know the game plan??? They need to humble themselves before their God and try to find out what the game plan is (that means trying to find out what God’s will is, rather than just focusing on what their own will is). I promise you that if person humbles himself/herself before God and asks with a true and sincere desire to know what His will is, and truly searches for the answer, God will undoubtedly set them on the path to receive the answers, just like it says in the James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom” scripture that I quoted in the previous comment. It is a promise, it is His promise. What kind of God would He be if He didn’t? Granted, I believe that we have to be convincing that we are sincere in our search and desire for knowledge. I think that God answers prayers and then man often writes them off as coincidences or fails to acknowledge them afterwards as being from God. For things that are truly/significantly important, I think He wants us to make a decent effort, so that when He gives us an answer we don’t just write it off as a coincidence. Socrates was said to have held Plato under water until he nearly drowned when Plato came to him desiring to know the meaning of life. Socrates said, “come back to me when your desire to know is equal to your desire for air and then I will tell you (source unknown, not even sure it’s a true story, but it helps make my point).
Let me move onto your other pet peeve, which by the way is again one of mine too but maybe in a slightly different way. I had to put the caveat in about “if He lets you” with regards to having children because I know many people who desire to have children but for whatever reason can not. My wife’s sister had 2 children and divorced. She married my best friend who had 2 children and divorced. Together after they were married they wanted children but in 5+ years have sadly not been able to have them. I could recite case after case of similar stories. Meanwhile, crack heads around the world are dropping litters. Does God have a say in these matters? I think so. My wife and I want at least one more child and I’m not sure what will happen in that regard. I believe it is a three way partnership. My wife and I make our choices and then we submit to our Father’s will in the matter. I again would have to be a God to understand what His logic is as to who can and can’t have children and when. I believe He is the author of giving and taking life, we’re just facilitators. I think what is troubling here when you say “the human/natural factor” is the question about our free agency. I agree with you if you do not think that we are mere puppets carrying out God’s will, whatever that is. I believe our entire existence (and what makes this whole plan work) is the law of free agency, that we decide our own fate (for the most part). I say “for the most part” because there are natural laws which we are bound to. I also think that God has the ultimate say in some things (i.e. giving and taking life). But certainly if we are to be tested here in mortality, to have a trial run at parenting as I’ve suggested, then surely we must have free agency. This is how we learn, this is how we are tested, this is how we prove ourselves worthy. Consider parenting once again. At first a parent limits the agency of a child to prevent them from harming themselves (and others). Eventually parents give their children more and more agency, as they prove themselves responsible. Eventually the children marry, break out on their own and their parents no longer call the shots. I believe the same happens with God, he certainly lets us make mistakes just as parents let their children make mistakes. I’d like to think he gives us more latitude as we make good choices. With regards to my pet peeve, it makes me crazy to hear people use the Lord’s name in vain. What does that mean? It can mean different things, but essentially it means using the sacred names of God, Jesus or Christ without really truly thinking about them. For example, people are accustomed to saying, “Thank God” for this or that, “I swear to God”, “Oh my God” or things like “Lordy Lordy”. These have become slogans or sayings and when people say them, they aren’t thinking about God at all, they are reciting mindless expressions. That is using the Lord’s name in vain. Now, when people are constantly saying “God gave me this car” or “by the grace of God” this or that happened, are they truly thinking about God or are they just trying to portray themselves as pious and/or sanctimonious? Not my call to judge, but it’s probably better to avoid saying it at all if it is questionable. You typically won’t hear seasoned Mormons talk like that. That isn’t to say that we’re not outwardly grateful, but we can express all our thanks privately in our personal prayers and if we want to express our gratitude towards God in an outward manner, we should probably do so by avoiding cliché slogans, so that we are truly sincere about what we are saying. The same applies to prayer. If we are praying to be seen by others, then it stops becoming sincere and starts becoming offensive to God.
I in no way am trying to criticize or judge your sister’s fiancée. I don’t know his heart, I don’t know his intent (and I never will because I’m just a man). I actually do believe that everything comes from God and that we should therefore be grateful to Him. The air that we breathe, the food and water that we ingest, etc. is from Him. Man has a part in some of this (cultivating), yes, but without sun and rain (God in general), we have nothing, we are nothing. Do I need to mention it in all of my conversation? I would be wrong to say that I should not always be mindful and grateful, but I just think that those thoughts and comments should be expressed directly to God in prayer and not openly. Again, what is my intent, it comes down to whether we are doing or saying it in vain. We Mormons are counseled in our teachings to pray over every meal and openly express gratitude in our homes. However, if we are in public, we are counseled to not draw the attention of others, if we feel we must express our gratitude, we should do it silently and inconspicuously. Prayers and our gratitude are not for the world to see and hear, they should be expressions to God.
Russell, the discussions about eternal life that we have had are like level 500 course work in Mormon theology. It is not normal nor even probably recommended that someone leap frog all of the basics and jump to the heavy stuff. That was my fault, and I only brought you on this journey because I felt from your blog posts that you were a deep thinker and that you would probably respond to it. If you think that any of what I’ve said is interesting, or makes any sense at all, I would encourage you to take a few steps backwards and learn the basics. I could certainly share them with you but I would encourage instead a verbal dialog with our missionaries (they are trained to explain things concisely and in a certain order rather than be all over the place like I have been). They have 5-6 one hour discussions where they explain the basics. Personally, I think that you would be at great advantage with the advanced understanding that I’ve imparted because you have already been introduced to the big picture, and you will then be able to see how everything plugs in to that big picture. Most people do not come into it from that perspective. They learn the big picture eventually but usually they learn to add and subtract before they jump into the calculus. If you were to agree to have these discussions, they could be done at our house, at your house, with or without me, with or without Tory, etc. Whatever is most comfortable to you. There is no pressure. You would quickly see that these are information sharing sessions similar to what we’ve been doing already, except with dialog you would get questions answered more quickly and probably more clearly (the benefit of communicating verbally vs. in writing). They will ask you to pray (on your own) to learn for yourself if what you are hearing is true. They will ask you to read things. They will teach you about prayer. I mean, they are not going to make any assumptions about what you may or may not know, they will start at square one. I highly recommend it.
If you are interested, and you did it at your house, there are young men missionaries that serve in the Aquia/northern Stafford area. If you did it in our home, we have young women missionaries. I know that Tory would be more than happy to join you (it would be good for her), as would I. It is your choice, what do you think? You will not offend me either way. We can also continue the blog dialog that we’re having if you’d like. I don’t know what the limitations are on comment volume, but it wouldn’t surprise me if I was pushing the envelope with these long winded posts.
Another great reply, thankyou!
I probably wont be able to think of any really good questions yet (its about 9:30 and i just woke up, my brain isn't quite fully functioning yet) but i AM able to respond to the missionary suggestion.
That IS a good idea, but i am enjoying the current state of my religious explorations in which i dont know any of the details, just the big picture. I should probably take this opportunity, now that i know a good portion of the mormon "big picture", to learn more completely the same amount from anglicanism (my religion by confirmation). So if i have any more questions concerning mormonism, i will certainly direct them at You or Tory.
but again, thankyou for this discussion. I'll be doing alot of thinking in the days/weeks to come :)
Good idea. If you have access to any other faiths of interest (in addition to Anglicanism), I'd be curious to hear what you learn especially as it relates to some of the things that we've discussed (like where did we come from, why are we here and where are we going after this life?).
We didn't really touch on the "where did we come from" question, that is part of the basics that you'd hear in the missionary discussions. But suffice to say that it is all about "eternal progression". We had maximized our potential where we were and we saw something better that we wanted, and we desired to progress further and that is why we're here.
Thanks again for the excellent dialog. Please feel free to email me gregkbaker@aol.com if you have any other questions and please do keep me posted in your search for answers. The whole intent of all of my blogs was to inspire you to search. People are complacent with being oblivious to the big picture (the eternal perspective) and I feel they are missing out on opportunities to really grow and make the most of this mortal experience.
You are young and just now approaching a pivotal time in your life where you start out on your own (really next year, right?) That would be an ideal time to really start figuring out what is truly important in life so that you can map out your plans to live by accordingly.
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